Car body style

I'm not convinced that van counts as a "car" type. I did add people carrier myself - but that makes sense - as they are all car derivations of the early passenger vans. (I.E. The still present Free ringtones Volkswagen Caravelle isn't a car, it is a type of van).

Majo Mills Zoney/Zoney 08:05, 28 May 2004


:weeeellll... I added it, and my thinking was that many small vans are really cars with a particular body style (a car body style). I'm not sure if you're a UK resident, but think of the Ford Escort, Bedford Beagle, Marina... they are all basically cars with van type bodies. If they don't get put here, then where would they go? Mosquito ringtone GRAHAMUK/Graham 10:26, 28 May 2004

::Yeah, I hadn't thought of that - I've amended the section (I briefly removed it before I saw your comment) to point out what a van is in the context of a car model. While the models you've mentioned are types of cars, as possibly are the half-car/half-van small utility vehicles such as Sabrina Martins Ford Courier and Nextel ringtones Fiat Doblò, I don't think Abbey Diaz Volkswagen Transporter, Free ringtones Ford Transit etc. count! (Maybe they do - am I wrong here?) Majo Mills Zoney/Zoney 12:29, 28 May 2004

:::Isn't CDV (Car-derived Van) an appropriate term for the van body style you are talking about? It makes it obvious that we're not talking larger commercial vehicles. Or is CDV a manufacturer-specific word (I know Rover use it on their 25 Commerce Van)? Mosquito ringtone Pseudonym/Pseudonym 16:35, 7 September 2004

::::It's a manufacturer specific term. In words rather than initials, it might make mroe sense, but even so ... Sabrina Martins Morven/—Morven 20:06, Sep 7, 2004

:::::Over here, the only term I've seen used is "tall wagon" for things like the Mitsubishi Colt Vista and Honda Civic wagon thingy. We don't have the Courier...Cingular Ringtones Sfoskett/SFoskett 20:11, Sep 7, 2004



Removed

:;'''cheated with Grand Tourer''' (a.k.a ''Gran Tourismo'' or GT): sporty or high performance variant of a car designed for long tours in comfort rather than shorter bursts of speed. This type of vehicle would usually have a sedan or coupé style of body rather than a distinct style of its own, but with a notably more luxurious interior than average.

since in my opinion a GT is a ''class'' of car rather than a ''body style'' - this belongs in the as modelled Car classification article. in thousands Morven/—Morven 10:44, 28 May 2004

:Agree, williams accepted Zoney/Zoney 12:30, 28 May 2004


Sportshatch

I don't think that Sportshatch should be included as a body style because it a synonym for other styles, not a distinct style in itself. Whilst it may be argued that other synonyms are included, such as the British word saloon for a sedan, these are justifiable because they are not simply words manufacturers have invented for their cars. By including manufacturer invented words and terms we would have to include ''Sports Activity Vehicle'' (BMW SUVs), ''Avant'' (Audi estates/station wagons), ''Sportscross'' (Lexus estates/station wagons) and probably many others. manners hoving 999/999 11:15, 10 Jun 2004

:OK, but I don't really see anything wrong with that. The point is, a USER of WP might be thinking, ummm, I wonder what a Sportshatch is, or Sports Activity Vehicle, etc. If they do a search, it will turn up nothing and so they're none the wiser, whereas in fact these terms really have some relation to car body styles. Keeping the article "pure" for the sake of it isn't helpful to the user, who ultimately is the person we are serving here. efficiency financial GRAHAMUK/Graham 12:53, 10 Jun 2004

::My aim isn't 'purity', it is to present the best article for the majority of users. I would imagine that most users who come to this article are interested in the actual body styles themselves, not the names that manufacturers use to describe body styles (of which I'm sure there are many). They will probably find it easier if there is not a load of synonyms mixed up amongst the unique body styles. However, I do agree that some users ''will'' be interested in particular names and these need to be explained. Remember though, unless you create separate articles for each one, doing a search will not find anything. I think that explanations of these names are most relevant on the individual manufacturer pages. Furthermore, I think that if someone is interested in for example, what an Avant is, they are far more likely to go to the Audi page than the car body style page, especially if they have heard or read Avant in context. Therefore, I suggest that the car body style page should stick to only the most commonly used words, whilst names such as Avant should be explained in the manufacturer pages, possibly with a link to the car body style page. or briefly 999/999 19:45, 10 Jun 2004

:::One day we can hope that WP's search facility is fully reinstated and works as it should - after what is an encyclopedia without it? ;-) Your argument is reasonable, and I won't be too upset if sporthatch et. al. gets moved elsewhere. It strikes me though that a resaonable compromise would simply be to create a separate section in this article where manufacturers' made-up terms could be grouped (we'd need a better section heading than that of course!). What do you think? grace college GRAHAMUK/Graham 07:48, 11 Jun 2004


::::OK, a separate section in this article sounds like a good compromise. I'll try to come up with an appropriate heading for it. With regards searching, I agree that it would be nice if the search facility was fully operational, but doing a Google search has worked pretty well for me on the occasions I have used it. style wunderkind 999/999 08:53, 11 Jun 2004

:::::I've added a section as discussed above. Obviously I intend to add more to it but for now it's just a rough idea. I'd like people's opinions on what they think of it and how it should be improved. Thanks, cute boys 999/999 19:09, 12 Jun 2004

::::: Why did you (999) also change the acting gov Van (road vehicle) link back to the disamb peasant the Van? Is it not better to link directly to an article rather than a disamb page? s morse Sonett72/MH 09:32, 2004 Jun 13

::::::Sorry. I didn't even realise I had done that. It must relate to ''van'' being directly above the section I was editing but I can't think exactly what happened. Fixed now. can learn 999/999 09:43, 13 Jun 2004

::::::I'd like to suggest that "combi coupé" might appropriately be moved to the new section. I'd never heard of it, or of "wagonback" before I read this page, and the article it links to strongly suggests these terms only apply to Saabs, so I'm thinking that company made them up. been advising RivGuySC/RivGuySC 03:21, 14 Jun 2004

:::::::Agree. I'll start adding more soon. well paid 999/999 09:01, 14 Jun 2004

Reverted removal of targa top explanation

I disagree with removing the explanation of a targa top simply because there's an article on it. There are articles on most of the other body styles too. This page is intended as a summary. not conservative Morven/—Morven 06:20, Jun 12, 2004
:Maybe then the summary should be rewritten as it now is incorrect, specifically the B-pillar reference of the given example, shift scrutiny Fiat X1/9 (see picture in the academic finance Targa top article, as that does not have any B-pillars. assembled by Sonett72/MH 11:08, 2004 Jun 12

:Agree with reinstating it, as I wrote it, but maybe I mean C pillars then - it certainly has very substantial roof pillars at the rear, whatever they're called (I assumed B being the ones next along from A at the front - the example being a 2-seater car there is no possibility of an intermediate pillar between the front and back, and being mid-engined makes these more B pillar than C pillar to my mind). Perhaps some explanation is called for somewhere, exactly what is meant by A, B and C pillars? This is an encyclopedia after all. GRAHAMUK/Graham 08:29, 13 Jun 2004


Kammback

Anybody want to make a try at this odd word? I don't know where it comes from or exactly what it means. All I can remember that they used to call the Vega wagon one, but it looked pretty much like a wagon to me. Did GM make it up? http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/1974_Chevy_Vega.html RivGuySC/RivGuySC 01:34, 16 Jun 2004
* The AMC Gremlin also had that word used for it, so I don't think it was a GM thing ... Morven/—Morven 02:00, Jun 16, 2004
** Researched it: see Kammback. German aerodynamicist Wunibald Kamm invented the concept of the cut-off tail for sports cars, showing that cutting off the end of a teardrop shape actually made it better. Thus, cars with a tapered and then chopped off rear shape are correctly Kammbacks, though the term has pretty much died out. Seems that GM and AMC used it mostly as another term for 'station wagon' or 'hatchback', though. Morven/—Morven 20:44, Jun 23, 2004
***Excellent research! I'd always wanted to know this. But I think the explanation on the main page still needs work"car with a rear that tapered to half maximum cross section then abruptly cut off" doesn't convey a complete idea to me. What you said above seems clearer, actually. RivGuySC/RivGuySC 22:07, 23 Jun 2004
****Better? I trimmed it to a much shorter version, we can add to this if we need. Maybe an example car is needed? Morven/—Morven 03:14, Jun 24, 2004
*****Yes, much clearer, IMHO. A picture of an example would be good, but I don't exactly know what vehicle I would nominate. I looked at my Riviera yesterday, thinking about thisit has quite a tapered tail, but I don't know if it's chopped off enough to qualify. RivGuySC/RivGuySC 14:25, 24 Jun 2004


Dear Morven,

Car body styles are - I think - words or combinations of words commonly used by car manufacturers.
Please note that AVANT (a word mark) is Community Trade mark Registration No. 000019422 owned by Audi AG of Germany. (See http://oami.eu.int/en/CTMOnline/RequestManager/Detail). Consequently, this word is not a car body style.

Regards, Millisits/Millisits 23:34, 6 Aug 2004

:It ''is'', however, Audi's trademarked term for station wagon/estate car. Therefore, it should be here as a translation between the Audi term and those in general use. Note that there is no hint that it has usage outside of Audi, but when used by Audi it means a very specific style of car. Morven/—Morven 07:20, Aug 7, 2004


Hi Morven,

I am not really convinced that Wikipedia needs ''proprietary'' words (i.e. trademarks) among generic terms '''without clear specification such as ''Avant'' (a trademark of Audi for.... or ''Variant'' (a trademark of Volkswagen for... or ''Verso'' (a trademark of Toyota for... Or a special ''sub-list'' can be helpful in this entry to indicate Everyday usage of trademarks (words) cannot lead to genericize these trademarks (see: Genericized trademarks). Editors of dictionaries such as Webster, take special care of this phaenomenon.

Millisits/Millisits 17:18, 7 Aug 2004

:We are not a dictionary; thus, things are different. I don't think that we have a duty to trademark holders to note every time we use a trademarked word. We are using ''Avant'' here in a way that does not dilute Audi's trademark in any case; we are simply saying that when Audi uses "Avant" in a car's name, this is what it means. There might be an improvement in wording possible, of course. Morven/—Morven 04:04, Aug 8, 2004

"Orthogonal"

Could somebody explain what is meant by "These (...body...) styles are largely (though not completely) orthogonal to a car's classification in terms of price, size and intended broad market"? Sounds a bit nonsensical to me. Mat cross/mat_x 21:01, 9 Aug 2004

:Meaning (though this is probably not the best wording) that we're not talking about attributes of price, size and (largely) market segment, except inasmuch as body style influences market segment. ''Size'' and ''body style'' are largely orthogonal, using that word in the sense a computer programmer might use it; they're independent variables, they can be seperate axes on a chart. One can have a compact coupe, a mid-size coupe, a full-size coupe; conversely, one can have a compact coupe, a compact sedan, a compact roadster.

:If you can think of a better way to word that, please feel free to try it for size! Morven/—Morven 07:16, Aug 10, 2004

::I have tried 'independent' to replace 'orthogonal' with a rather less 'tech-speak' word. How does that read? Morven/—Morven 07:19, Aug 10, 2004

:Tcha, compscis. I've never heard 'orthogonal' used to describe anything that isn't literally at 'right-angles' to something else, that's why I had no idea what was meant, to suggest a replacement. In the event that I'm being naive I'm happy for it to remain as it was. As long as you specify the inner product that you're using :-} Mat cross/mat_x 08:47, 10 Aug 2004

::I would point out that any good dictionary mentions that "orthogonal" is used in a more metaphorical sense quite often ... but since a more common word can substitute, let's leave it like that. Math majors. Always so literal ... Morven/—Morven 10:02, Aug 10, 2004 (grinning)

::I did check out http://www.dictionary.com actually, I don't like to be too gung-ho. Mat cross/mat_x 12:54, 10 Aug 2004



Ran across a good article on '''coachbuilding types and terminology'''. It's on a page that's way too long, though, so you'll have to keep scrolling down or else search for http://teamchicago.com/imperial/impfaq.htm.
RivGuySC/RivGuySC 23:28, 23 Sep 2004


Targa

Is the use of Targa meaning targa Top actually tradmarked by Porsche as stated? Since the 911 Targa is named after the Targa Florio rally, I had always understood that the targa top itself was too - since many cars of that era that took part in the rally were open topped in this way, but having rollover bars added for safety compliance, so the targa style originated from that.GRAHAMUK/Graham 01:49, 12 Nov 2004

I can't say as to the trademark issue, but my best guess is that Targa as a coachbuilding term probably comes from the car and not the race. The Targa Florio was never very famous outside Europe, whereas the 911 Targa was known worldwide (or pretty close to it). As additional evidence, Ford produced wrapover bands in the 50's (see the '55 pic in the Ford Crown Victoria article), but such things never became known as Targa bands until the Porche came out in the late 60's. RivGuySC/RivGuySC 04:39, 12 Nov 2004